VR Health Insider Podcast – Episode 5: Cix Liv
Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be a part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match along with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR gymnasium and produce many years of expertise from creating a number of the largest health expertise firms on the earth. They’re bringing collectively the most effective and brightest minds that can assist you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators have to have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and in addition to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the client to essentially perceive what they’re loving and hating.
Let’s decide up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to the easiest way to gather consumer suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.
Do you could have any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently accumulating that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, establishing a Discord? Or do you could have particular issues that you just do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with accumulating the suggestions?
Cix Liv: When you talk with an individual, like, immediately, it’s type of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by means of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by means of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?
in the event you’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on the whole lot. It’s nearly like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they speak to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I feel it is best to, you realize, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I feel it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss while you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Often [00:02:00] the customers that you just’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?
And also you’re often getting not numerous the suggestions of the people who simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t wish to inform you what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?
So for these, you’re gonna need to, like, discover it anecdotally by means of, like, Fb posts or unhealthy opinions, and this is the reason I might all the time chase the unhealthy evaluation folks. When you’re constructing that shopper product to grasp what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I feel that getting these three views and perhaps bucketing folks in these three issues, is an effective option to iterate in your product.
Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.
Ryan DeLuca: And it appears like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you stated, low cost the destructive opinions, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you wish to like clarify it. And somewhat than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we modify it? Generally you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by means of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us really within the gymnasium. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply attempting to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.
Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our type of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Those who, once they do strategy it, it’s like this, you realize, they’re perhaps rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which might be at the very least passionate sufficient to offer us the suggestions that we are able to hearken to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Recognize that recommendation, man. That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: Properly, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you just’re doing. So, um, not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm known as REK and we’d like to be taught much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you determine to begin that and, uh, inform us a little bit bit concerning the product.
Cix Liv: The newest firm I began is REK. So it’s type of a mixture of the 2 prior firms within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the largest studying was how can we attain the folks exterior the headset? How can we make it fascinating for folks to look at? When you mix that with health, which you realize, is in my view the largest use case of headsets, the info means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.
Yeah, really, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.
So the typical utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However once they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the large studying from LIV was we have to present what persons are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to look at.
The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have the most effective retention. And, you realize, I consider basically it’s the largest use case of HMDs. Um, so in the event you mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you realize what is basically sports activities. Proper?
I began this firm below this premise that, you realize, sports activities are going to be the following huge factor. And the rationale I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it type of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And numerous AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my pal who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?
Or like, “you wish to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the particular person’s already there. A basketball is, you realize, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like expertise attempting to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?
So, you realize, there was lots of people who had been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re ultimately simply gonna churn out and do the true factor.” Proper? That is why I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the last word aim is while you grow to be adequate at it, you flip into the true factor.
What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And once they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively related. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff that you may’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you’ll be able to’t kill your pal in basketball.
Sci-fi films type of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities might appear like, and typically you don’t wish to struggle in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply observe by means of with it.
I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.
He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you realize, one of many issues he’s all the time been actually desirous about is, what are legitimate use instances of AR that may really exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag sport that gained the primary place for an open pc imaginative and prescient contest final 12 months.
And mainly I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you realize, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So once we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we had been testing issues like House Pirate Coach Enviornment.
So House Pirate Coach Enviornment, it’s thirty by thirty toes, and it’s like a laser tag sport the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we had been testing video games like that, and to start with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty toes precisely. After which the way in which that you just draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even larger than that. And if it was exterior, we’d need to hotspot it, and it will solely work throughout sure instances of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we seen, is that while you really bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.
It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It needs to be AR while you’re operating. When you introduce operating, there needs to be augmented actuality.
Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled really operating in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d need to, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.
Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, in the event you’ve performed any boxing sport in VR and punched something, proper? I bear in mind I punched a desk one time and my complete hand was bleeding, however I didn’t notice till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”
Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.
Ryan DeLuca: There’s much less ache notion, so I assume that may very well be good and unhealthy. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a purpose.
Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually known as VR to ER?
Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are displaying them destroying issues or hurting themselves.
Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you stated, like, when you try this one time, you then’re not serious about being within the expertise. You’re serious about hitting one thing. Identical factor occurred to me after I was, uh, I used to be taking part in one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as onerous as I probably might. Yeah, I’m not taking part in that anymore.
Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] operating, that worry turns into a lot extra realized.
Preston Lewis: Attention-grabbing.
Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The best way these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on prime of the particular person. Proper? But when that’s off by any vital diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a pal. And simply slam into them. Proper? I basically consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it needs to be AR, in the event you’re like operating and doing stuff like that.
However there’s large, large challenges with AR. One of the apparent ones, in the event you begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by means of headsets, they don’t really section the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that the whole lot renders in entrance of the particular person. So say that you just’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that particular person is there and also you wanna put a aim behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the aim must render in entrance of them. It could actually’t reduce the particular person out and render the article behind them.
So it’s a must to do immensely difficult technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place it’s a must to, like, section the particular person out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same particular person, the place the particular person is, after which it’s a must to make it possible for the particular person is synced correctly.
After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the aim that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small aim, nevertheless it’ll render in entrance of the particular person, even when they’re, like…
Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.
Cix Liv: That is why, you realize, once we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a very easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the rationale we did spell duals had been, okay, you’re punching. This can be a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many largest issues for me that I decide as a hit standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So while you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to grasp the way to play a sport is extremely essential. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper likelihood that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that needs to be, like, as slim as attainable.
So we began, okay, you’re punching on the particular person, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the rationale it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t need to render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awoke and we had been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was primarily based off the constraints of the Quest headset. Proper?
Like, we are able to’t have objectives behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff with out a large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us had been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s type of the rationale why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the way in which it was.
Preston Lewis: Small little notice there for our customers, type of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with consumer suggestions and letting that type of information product selections. That was a superb instance you simply gave of taking part in within the sandbox of what the expertise can really do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as attainable within the expertise. So, that’s good.
Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is with the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to really watch it from the surface. What you actually put a give attention to with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda means?
Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of great obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? If you’re watching a soccer sport otherwise you’re watching a soccer sport or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digital camera existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions in all places, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which might be essential, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you’ll be able to’t do numerous the shit that you just’ve accomplished in VR with all these cool environments. Mainly the surroundings nearly disappears at that time. Proper? You’ll be able to’t have a fancy surroundings in the event you’re attempting to spectate. So, I feel that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We could need to render one thing completely different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks exterior see. So, like, within the headset you’d see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?
Like, all these design selections that you just’re gonna need to make, that you just wouldn’t need to even take into consideration in VR, in the event you’re designing deliberately for spectating. The last word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch will not be gonna be a spell duel sport in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we had been simply, you realize, what’s the most elementary factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the earth can perceive? And yeah, that’s type of the place that got here.
We’ve been engaged on fairly a number of completely different sport ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.
Ryan DeLuca: Properly, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.
I don’t know if there’s the rest you needed to say about creating REK and like the choices that had been made round that.
Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this thought, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we really went by means of the method of attempting to get into the LBE sport and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…
Ryan DeLuca: Location primarily based leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?
Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we had been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you realize? So then we had been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we had been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 12 months previous contemporary outta highschool attempting to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half attempting to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we had been simply, you realize, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, actually. , we couldn’t afford to even attempt it.
So we’re going again to approaching it as creating shopper product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron facet. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our largest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you really get folks to convey a headset exterior? And I feel that’s an unsolved downside. And the way in which I like to elucidate it, in essentially the most succinct means attainable, is REK is [00:17:00] attempting to do to headsets what Niantic, you realize, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their gadgets as nearly like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.
I do assume that sooner or later we could return into LBEs, nevertheless it’s possible gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you realize, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you realize, we didn’t have the cash to do this. Proper?
Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many stuff you’ve accomplished, you and the crew have accomplished very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising and marketing. We type of talked about the viral movies and issues that you just did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks as if it’d be straightforward to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to struggle the notion within the early days, at the very least that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.
However you guys have accomplished simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even wanting on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the crew on making the tech look cool.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a superb level. So many instances some new VR health factor comes out or exercise sport, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising and marketing. And clearly that’s not crucial factor, you realize, in numerous experiences. Like, we all the time discuss Minecraft, for instance, you realize, beginning out extra pixelated type of stuff.
It’s all the time, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you realize, such as you stated, it’s like no person needs to journey a Segway, however we are going to journey a cool chook scooter down the highway. Proper? , it’s like the identical factor, only a completely different configuration. So, such a superb level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff appears to be like fashionable and funky, that folks wanna be part of it.
Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you type of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you could have the type of the dorky type of graphics and stuff, after which you could have you’re a hero shot. I believed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually essential, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that device of contrasting. Proper?
And displaying folks, like, it doesn’t need to be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve accomplished a very good job with that.
Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.
Cix Liv: I imply, to be sincere, Meta is making it fairly straightforward, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry upfront. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising and marketing. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so unhealthy that it’s taking down our complete trade.
I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a foul product, that’s taking down the whole VR house. As a result of while you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty wanting Zuck avatar and, you realize, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house appear like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I feel it’s such a foul allocation of assets, and it’s such a foul search for headsets that it’s really hurting all of us.
Ryan DeLuca: A few of the commercials they make are wonderful. , once they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?
As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they will make or break it, you realize? And in the event that they do a fantastic job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it might convey us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.
Cix Liv: I might look into the PICO if I had been you guys, I don’t know in the event you used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is the whole lot the Quest 2 ought to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s the whole lot the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as a substitute, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, nevertheless it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already an enormous downside. I simply I don’t get it.
Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you just’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences as we speak? And what makes ’em good?
Cix Liv: I actually like this sport known as Blaston. I used to be taking part in it quite a bit within the pandemic. So it’s a twin sport, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these numerous velocity projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up turning into, is like, you’re having to do numerous dodging… it’s actually energetic. I feel I hit like a thousand energy an hour taking part in that at full depth. I actually appreciated that.
The most effective sports activities kind sport in VR proper now might be Nock. So in the event you’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you type of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.
I feel my largest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute basic of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You may make the most effective graphics on the earth, you can also make a fantastic storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which might be wonderful. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.
And you realize what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. When you take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for essentially the most opinions on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking software, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the rationale for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion methodology. And the locomotion methodology is mainly you operating in your fingers. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any way. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s mainly like tag for teenagers. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive quite a bit, so perhaps that’s why they’re not in the primary retailer. However it’s mainly children operating on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply operating like this.
Preston Lewis: That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.
Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m attempting to reload a gun in one in all these difficult type of first particular person shooters, I assume my definition of VR, they’re all first particular person, you realize?
However it’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m attempting to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little elements of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m positive I might get good at, I’m positive if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d in all probability like, you realize, haven’t any downside.
However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.
Cix Liv: Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games had been type of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would mainly resolve puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is mainly similar to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what you have to do. , you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and wonderful graphics into, like, mainly Cel Shaded Time Disaster.
It was his most profitable title. And, like, I feel numerous sport builders are mad about that. And so they go, ” why can’t we have now wonderful graphics? Why can’t we have now dynamic storylines? Why can’t we have now all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, persons are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?
Preston Lewis: You type of alluded to designing in sport mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and other people keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade as we speak?
Cix Liv: Properly, if I advised you that I’d be making a gift of my secrets and techniques.
Preston Lewis: There we go.
Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged the whole lot.
Preston Lewis: High quality, inform us your first title, then. High quality. Simply inform us your first title.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual title?
Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your start title?
Cix Liv: I feel that you may type of, like, paint the image of what I feel goes to be the longer term primarily based off what I’ve stated previously. Which is, you realize, low cognitive load, straightforward to grasp, purpose to placed on the headset is energetic, you realize, fascinating for folks to look at. After which the largest concern in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can inform you what number of instances I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety p.c of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”
Trustworthy to God, it’s like nearly each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you realize, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work exterior, so it solely works in low mild environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you realize, the second you set a weight in your hand, it could’t detect your hand anymore. So you’ll be able to’t quantify the health.” Proper?
One other huge concern with creating for AR, is that you just don’t have entry to the digital camera knowledge, it simply mainly is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no dying digital camera in it, so you’ll be able to’t simply section gamers out. , there’s some like laser tag ideas that folks have made with the Quest. And so they create this video and it makes it look so good.
It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind bins they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking wonderful.” Proper? And you then go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is not possible”. Like, to start with, you’ll be able to’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you’ll be able to’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous concern. After which I discussed the problem of, like, rendering folks on prime of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?
So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You’ll be able to within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map the whole scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that folks present are very conceptual, as a result of you’ll be able to’t really do numerous this shit.
The factor that’s aged me essentially the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety p.c of something that you just consider.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you realize? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s acquired a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.
And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you realize, we’re caught in, uh, you realize, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you realize, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of we have now to have some kind of option to do exterior monitoring of arms and fingers, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.
And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we’d like to have the ability to have mainly the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you realize, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly might use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you realize, as a result of we’re doing numerous punching and slicing and actions, or they take care of occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.
So, you realize, it looks like the whole lot’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you realize, if we might simply get that in order that the sector of view is a little bit bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply type of like guess a little bit bit round, it may very well be actually fascinating. However, such as you stated, these shared experiences are just about not possible with the constraints of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you realize? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we wish? It may very well be tomorrow, it may very well be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It may very well be three years from now and we simply don’t know.
You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s as we speak. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior sport, nevertheless it might need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not numerous traction prefer it did. And so they’ve taken numerous that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the largest platform as we speak, in fact.
Preston Lewis: The following query was gonna be describe your good AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. However it appears like it’s staying throughout the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s at the moment [00:30:00] obtainable. Making an attempt to future solid a little bit bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, in the event you construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.
You talked concerning the spectator facet of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous essential in Black Field VR. We all the time say that the great factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is that you may construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to truly construct a title that’s type of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and you then gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.
And never just for the enjoyable of the consumer, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes may very well be wonderful. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so appears like the identical web page there.
In fact offers you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And mainly, simply, we have to in some way crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff quicker for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.
Cix Liv: I might attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you realize, the 2 major focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very critically. There’s additionally a very fascinating purpose for that, by the way in which.
In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you’ll be able to play a online game per day. And in the event you can persuade the federal government that it’s a health machine, you get away of that limitation. In order that’s really one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they will persuade the federal government that it’s a health machine and never a sport machine, they will really get away of that limitation.
That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.
Ryan DeLuca: Properly, man, we’ve discovered a lot from you. I feel we acquired like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, to date. So, uh, actually respect it. I feel to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard quite a bit about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and a little bit little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?
Cix Liv: I assume you’d need to observe my Twitter.
Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.
Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to disclose the whole lot concerning the previous of how I acquired to this point, however a number of the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to hold below wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion software that permits you to spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you realize, all of the stuff that sports activities have.
I feel one of many huge issues I wanna depart folks with, that’s one thing that, may be a light-weight bulb second. Is once we had been doing our assessments, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been a number of various things that occurred that made me assume we’re occurring the correct path.
Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who had been, you realize, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his pal. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and stated, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was taking part in in opposition to his son’s pal, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you realize, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he might see his son and he might see how he was taking part in his pal and all this different stuff. And so these moments had been actually essential.
However the factor that basically mild bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to start with, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and taking part in League of Legends?”
Like, you realize, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d haven’t any [00:34:00] thought or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that will’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, although it was, you realize, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my huge obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is larger than the whole XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.
And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities grow to be larger than the whole house, as a result of it could get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, mild bulb second. That is it. ? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you realize, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we take care of in our house is one other query. However, you realize, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis we have now. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m positive our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as all the time, we are going to put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to become involved in what he’s doing. Actually respect it. Thanks once more.
Thanks for listening to the VR Health Insider podcast. Have you learnt of anybody that ought to be on our present or have suggestions? Don’t overlook to e-mail us at podcast vr health insider.com and observe us at VR Health Insider on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. You may as well be part of our Discord channel. Till subsequent time, hold creating and dreaming up the following huge factor that can revolutionize the world of health.
